Featured Conversation: Talking With Matt Carter About Frank Zappa

Published on Apr 13, 2025

Today we are talking to Matt Carter of Rhode Island about his Zappa fandom. I referred to him as “my resident Zappa expert” on social media, and we decided to let people ask him questions about Zappa.

We are talking to my brother in law, Matt Carter, who I consider a Zappa expert. 

I wouldn’t go that far.

Okay, he’s a Zappa fan and a very big Zappa fan.

I am.

I asked on Bluesky if people had questions for you so I’m going to start at the beginning and go.

Should I preface this with how it all started?

Sure.

In either 1988 or 1989, I think it was 1989, I was in a dorm room with a bunch of people smoking weed, like six or seven people. I’m not sure. The only person I know that was there was a guy named Adam who put on…Rykodisc originally released Apostrophe(‘) and Over-Nite Sensation as one album. They also released it with Apostrophe(‘) being first on the disc, which is not how it was released. It was released Over-Nite Sensation and then Apostrophe(‘). But when Rykodisc put them out, which a lot of people have problems with Ryko, they put Apostrophe(‘) first and then Over-Nite Sensation after, so to me, that was one album. It was, you know, the continuity was there. It was a 15 or 16 track album that started with Apostrophe(‘) and ended with Over-Nite Sensation. So he put it on, and I don’t think anybody in the room really knew what we’re listening to or even thought about it, but somewhere during the couple of hours that we were in there smoking pot and hanging out and laughing and doing everything, I got away from the conversation we were having with with the people that were in the room and started to focus on the music that we were listening to. I’m not sure where exactly, I think it was probably right around “Stinkfoot,” which is the first track on Over-Nite Sensation. I think that’s where I kind of started to get away from what we were doing and more into what we were listening to. But nobody else really gave a shit about what we were listening to, they were just having fun. So I’m listening to him and I finally said to Adam, like what is this? What are we listening to? I think I was more interested from the comedy standpoint at first than the actual music. It was more about the fact it was a funny record to listen to. The lyrics were funny, and that’s how it started.

And you just went from there?

Yeah, actually the next day, I went to Crystal mall in Waterford, Connecticut, which I’m not even sure exists anymore. And I went to the record store there, and I bought that album, which was actually two albums, which I didn’t realize. I thought the name of the album was Apostrophe(‘)/Over-Nite Sensation. So I bought that one, and I bought Joe’s Garage just on, I don’t know, maybe pure luck, because if I bought something else, maybe none of this would have ever happened. Now, if I picked one out that’s not one of my favorites or one that maybe became one of my favorites later, but not right off the bat then maybe my fandom would have never happened. So, those were the first two albums I bought, even though it was actually four albums because Joe’s Garage Act I was released separately from Acts II and III. So, I listened to those four and that’s where it started.

Great! We’re going to go to the questions from the people. What are your thoughts on Gail’s stewardship of the catalog and the arc of the way it was released after he died?

The problem is that I came in so late, I was only there five or six years before he died, and I think the Rykodisc deal to the Zappa purist was maybe not great in their opinion but I didn’t know any better at the time. And I think Gail, you know, she needs money. She has to do this. You have the vault (all of Frank’s recordings), you have all that material available to you, whether it was approved by Frank or not. I don’t really have an issue with her releasing it because there’s a bunch of people out there that want to hear that stuff. So if it’s available and she’s releasing it then I’ll take it. But I think it’s fair to question it because there are people out there that didn’t appreciate the way she went about it. I’m not one of those, I was more concerned with the fact that Dweezil and Ahmet had disagreements about the family trust to the point that they weren’t speaking to each other. Gail left control of the trust to Ahmet and Diva Zappa, and Moon and Dweezil were kind of left out of that. That limited Dweezil’s ability to tour and play Frank’s music with Zappa plays Zappa. But as far as I’m concerned, I wish the whole vault was available to listen to. I want to hear it all, even the bad stuff. He would release material that was either a really excellent performance or a performance where something notable happened, like Sting showing up and playing Murder by Numbers with the band or Johnny Cash not showing up but the band playing Ring of Fire anyway. I don’t even know if I answered the question, but no, I don’t have a problem with Gail’s stewardship of the material. It’s just business, and I want to hear all of it.

I didn’t know he had that many kids, I only knew two.

Yes, two boys and two girls. Moon, Dweezil, Ahmet(rhymes with vomit) and Diva.

What is your opinion of the Synclavier recordings?

Actually, Matt DeMello is the one who turned me back on to Jazz from Hell recently, because I always felt that they were very cold. But when I made a comment about it, he brought up that he loves them so I gave them a re-listen and I actually enjoyed it. And Civilization Phaze III is his final recording that he made while he was alive, not the final release, but his last recording.That’s the Synclavier, and it’s good but I can’t say that I wasn’t disappointed when it came out. I just wanted a little more, but the guy was dying. I did enjoy it and I thought a lot of it was good, but I think if he had a little more time it would have been more polished. But Matt Demello, who we both know, was the one who made me listen to Jazz from Hell again after not having heard it for years, and it’s really excellent. I wish I had given it a little more attention, I just wasn’t really into it the first few times I heard it. 

That was from Chris Ingalls who said he’s a bigger fan than you. 

He didn’t say that.

He said he’s the second.

I said he could be the biggest. I’ve only taken that claim because there’s always somebody out there who knows more than you. Ben Watson, for instance, who wrote the book The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play, which is about Conceptual Continuity and comparing lyrics in Frank Zappa’s songs to literature. I don’t really know what to say about it, Ben Watson is known as Out to Lunch. He’s a Zappa expert.

The next question is from Craig Jenkins. It’s a bit of a lengthy, in depth question. Did the music need him to be the taskmaster of a bandleader that he was? Plus, what’s there to live for? Who needs the Peace Corps? Plus, how bad would the country hate the man if he still walked the earth with the same political clarity that he had in the 80s?

I don’t think the country would hate him at all, and maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think he said things that we were all thinking all the time, except back then it wasn’t well-received. I think now it would be because, he considered himself a practical conservative, but I think he was more of a fiscal conservative by definition. He wanted a smaller, less intrusive government and lower taxes. Because who doesn’t want that? I think we all want lower taxes and the government to stay out of our business, and that’s what Frank wanted. So, he identified himself as a practical conservative, but he said things that were offensive to certain groups of people, but he told it like it was. There’s the famous Crossfire interview where he discusses the fact that we are headed toward a Fascist Theocracy. Even if you’re religious, you don’t necessarily want religion in your government. I don’t think the country would hate the man. There would be some people who hate him, but I don’t think they matter in the big picture.

What is your favorite touring band of his?

Oh God, I don’t know. I never got to see him because I didn’t discover him until 1989, but I think The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life is probably the most talented group of musicians. But I also feel like that’s a slap in the face to the George Duke and Napoleon Murphy Brock band of the One Size Fits All era. Yeah, so if I could go to any point in time and see a touring band it would be the One Size Fits All band. But I saw the Zappa plays Zappa band and Napoleon Murphy Brock was there and that was great too, but I think if I could go back I would want to see Ruth, first of all, Ruth Underwood, I would love to see her. I would love to see George Duke. Napoleon Murphy Brock, that’s the band. The early 70s band.

What about Steve Vai’s interview with Frank to join the band?

Oh, There’s multiple videos of Vai talking about how brutal Frank was. Brutal, that was the word he used to describe the interview process Frank had for joining his band, and Frank himself has said that if he had to go through the audition process to join his band, he wouldn’t have gotten into his own band. So Vai was very young and was hired to transcribe Frank’s composition into sheet music. Eventually he was hired to be part of the band and, I think it’s in the liner notes in Them or Us, he’s listed as “Impossible Guitar Parts.” I think Steve is probably the greatest technical guitarist that was ever in one of his bands. When he auditioned for Zappa, Frank would have him play a line and then would tell him to add this note and then that note and then change the time signature, then have him play it in reggae, and then it got to a point where Steve just told him, “that’s impossible, nobody can do that”, and Frank just said, “Well, I hear Linda Ronstadt is looking for a guitar player.” Brutal. But getting into Frank’s band is a money maker. If you get a spot in his band, you can get any job you want after that. Warren Cucurullo was in Duran Duran. Missing Persons was made up of all ex-Zappa members. Ralph Humphrey was in Steely Dan. You see all these guys’ credits in their discographies and it’s incredible. Aynsley Dunbar was in Journey. They just all show up elsewhere later. You can get any job you want coming out of that band. Jean-Luc Ponty was in the band. All these heavies played with him. Gail Zappa said that when the British bands came to the states to tour, they all wanted to meet Frank.

What are your top five recommendations for someone who never explored the Zappa catalog? 

This is always so difficult for me because I never want to steer somebody in the wrong direction. I don’t want them to listen to something and not like it because everyone has different tastes. I think the number one for me would be Over-Nite Sensation, that is one I would always suggest, but there’s songs on that that I think some wouldn’t like, like “50/50” or “Zomby Woof.” I think the first ones I listened to were Apostrophe(‘), Over-Nite Sensation, and Joe’s Garage. After that I think it was Hot Rats, and that was a surprise to me because it was mostly instrumental, and I don’t think I was really at a point where I wanted to listen to instrumentals when I was nineteen. I did later, but right after I discovered him, maybe five years later, he died. I had to listen to The Yellow Shark and Civilization Phaze III, because that was the new stuff that came out but I wasn’t really ready for it. I would say Apostrophe(‘), Over-Nite Sensation, Joe’s Garage, Roxy & Elsewhere and One Size Fits All. Also, Freak Out! and the Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life because it has stuff from all different eras and a cover of “Stairway to Heaven” with the horn section playing the guitar solo. Oh yeah, and Zoot Allures.

Okay, a miracle cure happens and Zappa survives the recording of Civilization Phaze III. Where does his music go? Does he continue in a more serious vein, or do we get a more mature Zappa period?

I’m not going to lie, I read this question yesterday and I found it…perplexing. It’s an excellent question, I just have no idea what he would have done going forward. I wish I had more of him alive, because I think his music was affected by the fact that he knew he was going to die. I mean, we’re all going to die, but I think his music was affected by the fact that he knew he was going to die first. He was young, too. He died, I think it was three weeks short of his 54th birthday. I think that’s a huge part of Civilization Phaze III. I don’t know what he would have done. He made so many advancements in the process of recording, like the number of tracks and splicing tapes and using guitar solos from one song over a different song. There’s a name for that, but I can’t remember what it is (Xenochrony). So, at this point he would be in his eighties, so I think he would probably be doing mostly orchestral music, but I’m not sure. I would love to know what he would have to say about our current political situation, because I’m sure he wouldn’t really pick a side. I think he would just point out the ludicrous, ridiculousness of what we’re doing right now.

Do you think he would have pursued politics?

Well, he wanted to run for president. He brought it up. Zappa for President is the name of one of his albums. He was on Crossfire. Later in his musical career he became more outspoken. They wanted to make him the Minister of Trade and Tourism in the Czech Republic, but it was blocked by the United States government, which is fucking crazy. I mean, it’s fucking nuts that the United States government would have anything to say about that. Somebody should fact check me on that because I might be wrong. They treated him like a hero when he showed up in the Czech Republic, and he was friends with Vaclav Havel. He wrote Joe’s Garage as a rock opera or a concert album, whatever you want to call it. It discusses music becoming illegal in the United States, and you think that sounds stupid or far fetched but there are places on earth where music already is fucking illegal. It’s illegal in some other countries. You can’t listen to music. So Joe ends up going to prison for playing music and when he gets out there are no musicians anymore, so he plays his last imaginary guitar solo, which is my favorite song in his catalog(“Watermelon in Easter Hay”). And you think, that will never happen, but it is happening.

As a casual observer from the outside, I feel like the Crossfire interview had him trending that way, toward being more outspoken politically.

He was. When you watch the crossfire interview he talks about this country being headed toward a fascist theocracy, and they laugh, they say no it’s not. And you can say that maybe he was a little early, but maybe he was right. It was 40 years ago, but what are we doing here? They’re talking about a national religion. This is nuts.

I think if he were around today he would be irate about that.

We all pay taxes. If you invested your money in something and this is the return you got, you would stop putting money into it.

What’s your favorite Zappa guitar solo?

“Watermelon in Easter Hay.” That’s not fair. That’s not really a fair answer, because it’s so obvious. I’ll give you a couple more. “Son of Mr. Green Genes” off of Hot Rats. I love that solo. It goes on forever. “Sexual Harassment in the Workplace.” “Stinkfoot.” I think he uses a ring modulator on that one, I can’t remember. It sounds like he’s playing a guitar made out of rubber bands.

We have a couple more questions.

I could do this for the next three days if you want.

Who is the best drummer who played with him?

That’s a tough one. So, I think you can rule out the people that played with him in the early years. I think you have to go Terry Bozzio vs. Chad Wackerman vs. Aynsley Dunbar and there are others. I lean toward Terry Bozzio because I met him and he was super nice and he’s obviously incredible but I think I’m going to say Chad Wackerman. And anyone, especially someone who actually plays drums, comes in and says “No, it’s Chester Thompson!”, I wouldn’t even argue with them because they’re all incredible.

If you could have gone to any Zappa show ever, which one would it be and why?

It would be the one that he released from Nassau Coliseum, the last US show. That’s the one I would go to, not because it was better than any other, because I would probably want to see a different band, but it was the last time you could have seen him in the United States. That’s probably the one.

I think we covered all the questions. What else do you want to talk about?

I’ll give you my take on the whole thing because I think there’s people out there that just don’t like him and I get that because there are bands that I don’t like. But if you don’t like Frank, try a different album because some of his albums don’t even sound like the same band. There’s stuff he’s released that I don’t like. Broadway the Hard Way is a fine album, but I almost never listen to it. I like it but I don’t really want to hear it. Another thing, Frank could have written pop hits all day long. He could have written top 40 stuff if he wanted to. He could have written music for other people or played it himself. If you don’t believe me, listen to the end of It “Just Might Be a One-Shot Deal.” I like to point that one out because he throws a wrench into the song and then he starts playing this catchy hook that sounds like a pop song to me. George Duke talks about how Frank would write these beautiful melodies and it would aggravate him because he would “throw a wrench into it” and he felt that Frank was ruining it. Frank would respond that it “needed to be ruined.” I don’t think he was doing any of this for us, the listeners. He was doing what he wanted. If we like it, then great. If not, great. Once he got out of the Warner Brothers contract, he may have been selling fewer albums, but he was making more money. And he owned all of his material. When Steve Vai went out on his own, he asked Frank for advice. That was the advice Frank gave him. Make sure you own all of your material.

That’s all the questions we are going to cover for now. There are more, so we may do a Part 2.

Matt Carter is a truck driver from Rhode Island who regrets almost every decision he ever made that resulted in him being a truck driver from Rhode Island. If it wasn’t for his older brother he would have been his mother’s favorite. He can be found on bluesky.